The Job Experience, Hell: Year #12

Updated FIRE plans


In October, just over three months into my job with Hell, I decided to start looking for something else.

You might think that I reached this decision purely because I was lazy and wanted to work less. Mostly it was because I couldn’t stand the sense of fear from the rest of the team around the CEO.

You’ve probably had an experience with a rescue animal.  These are nice little mammals who have had the misfortune to be owned by awful human beings who put cigarettes out on their skin and kick them around the house.

I felt like I worked for a company full of soon-to-be rescue humans.  I couldn’t watch it anymore.  The abuse, I mean. Satan leaned into Namager, our CSO, and our main account manager, and even, at times, me, without restraint.  He created his own circus of stress and suffering while surrounding himself with people who were too afraid to do anything other than his bidding.  El Diablo clearly took pleasure in dispersing a fog of unfiltered chaos onto the people under him.

Here’s the part I didn’t expect: Namager started to buckle under the pressure. He’d been terrific back at StartupVille, but after being stuck under Satan for a while, he started to make unreasonable demands of his own. I could tell that many members of the engineering staff were working until 3AM on a regular basis, only to have to wake up at 8, join an engineering call, and do it all over again the next day because Namager was cracking the whip. Which he did because he felt he had to.

Satan had transformed my old friend into a crazymaking goblin king.


So what does this all have to do with FIRE?

Simple.  It was time to get serious about my exit plans from the working world.  I absolutely, 100% had to leave it, and sooner rather than later.

Because in my mind, I’d completed my final experiment.   So much for the advice that says “Follow your passion, and work will feel like play.”

Totally invalidated.  At this point I’d tried a large enough sampling of jobs to know that the employment environment is universally bleak.  In fact, the only place where I was happy (StartupVille) was essentially a dead company which demanded very little actual work from me.

Just to repeat a point: I’d now held a position which allowed me complete control to do whatever I liked and this power didn’t do anything for me to increase my overall job and life satisfaction.

That beautiful, idealistic advice from economics professor Larry Smith that I discussed way back on page 2, which tells people to go out there and pursue your business passion?

Wrong, plain and simple.  Every single person I told about my job said that I was “lucky,” “fortunate,” and “blessed” to have a director-level position at a startup.  But they didn’t know what they were talking about.  In reality, living out the existence of one of these high-responsibility, workaholic people was worse than I could have anticipated.

Like I said, sure, I had power to do what I liked.  I could tell people on the engineering team that I needed this or that to meet some objective that I thought was worth doing.

So bleeping what? There was no joy in it.  I’m not sure why so many people pretend that there is.

At this point I felt as though I’d completely exhausted all available options to me, in terms of finding employment that would satisfy me as a person. Without a shadow of a doubt, work sucked.  I no longer felt as though I just wasn’t giving certain opportunities a chance.  I clearly didn’t suffer from any fear of having too much responsibility or flying too close to the sun like an office-spawned Icarus.

In summary, I’d given the ideal of work every chance it deserved, and it’d come up short every single time.

In October, around the same time that I’d decided to look for alternate employment, I also began doing research on how much is enough to retire. Between me and my wife, our net worth was around the 1.1M mark, including equity in our house, and I started to think that it was almost unbelievable that we couldn’t just retire yet — you know, say goodbye to it all and quit the madness of modern-day employment. One point one million!

This began a time of mental transition for me.  I stopped focusing on saving and instead honed in on the next steps in our overarching journey.

It was during this time when I learned about the 4% rule via the Trinity Studies.

And I found that we were very close to being able to do it.  If we downsized to a 200K residence, and could restrict our spending to 40k/yr, we’d be there.

But it’d be tight.  Plus, I didn’t quite trust the Trinity studies, for various reasons that I won’t get into here. (My feelings are best summed up with the phrase past performance does not always equal future success.  Look at Japan’s last decade and the underlying reasons for the anemic growth if you want a fun research project.)

At any rate, I decided that what I really wanted was to downsize my career immediately.  I’d make less money for a couple more years while allowing my stash to continue to (hopefully) grow in the market.

I set a new (and final) target number:  650K in assets with a paid off house, with my wife having a similar sheet.  This would bring our total net worth to about 1.5M.  With this arrangement, we could go with a significantly safer 3% withdrawal rate, which would still allow us to spend 40K a year.  I felt very confident that these numbers would be enough for us — and the truth was, we weren’t far off from our current position.  I estimated 2-3 more years, tops.

And I set a new target for employment as well.  I wanted to find a place which a) didn’t require overtime, b) had minimal or no on-call and c) didn’t contain a single Satan-type employee.

My search took me away from corporate america and into academia.  I’ll get into more of the details around the search in my next post.

For now, it’s probably enough for you to know that I was interviewing in November, and by the beginning of December I’d become reasonably certain that one particular university was going to make me an offer.

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38 Responses to The Job Experience, Hell: Year #12

  1. Gamergirl says:

    Wow, the $250 visa gift card is almost like a slap in the face. It would have been LESS insulting to give you nothing. O.o

    Crazy story.

  2. Yep. Totally agree with you about CEOs being batshit crazy, or just awful people. I once wrote up a 10 page proposal to overhaul my current employer and eventually spike it because I realized how much closer I’d have to work with ownership. Ugh.

    The only work I’ve ever truly enjoyed is physical labor. Editing is a close second. Both of these are incredibly fulfilling personally, but good luck getting paid….

    • Funnily enough, the Alchemist came home and complained that all of the executives at her company speak an alien tongue and might as well be psychopaths…

      • livingafi says:

        Thanks for the comments, GC. I’m with you on physical labor — it doesn’t bother me much because it doesn’t ask me to be a different person. When we first moved into our house seven years ago I worked on it constantly but it didn’t feel like work in the slightest. Also I’m not too surprised you do some editing as your blog is really clean and well written.

  3. Jennifer says:

    So is Hell still around today? Would you be a multi millionaire now if you’d have stayed longer?

    • livingafi says:

      Ha! Great question. Yes, they are still around, but they only have three clients. This info comes to me via my old manager friend who is still there. It hasn’t gotten any better, but somehow they continue to receive additional funding. BTW, I’ve been out of there 2 1/2 years now and I’m *still* glad I’m not working for them anymore. The best thing about bad jobs: They make your other jobs feel much nicer than they really are.

  4. Dwayne Hoover says:

    My favorite post in this series – thank you for sharing. Really admire the way you push back against your bosses! That must have been marvelous for your rescue-human coworkers to witness. Although, the moment they knew you were leaving must have been especially bleak for them.

    • livingafi says:

      Re: Pushback — I have to give the nod to FU money again on this. I found that having financial security makes me unwilling to put up with so many behaviors that I would otherwise accept, and I think this is true for just about everyone who achieves it. Being FI allows you to make use of the backbone you’ve always had 🙂 Glad you’re enjoying the stories, and thanks for stopping by.

  5. FeelinGroovy says:


    I am seriously loving this series of posts.

    I too read YMOYL when I was 26 and miserably fed up. Unfortunately for me, I was still in grad school so still not making very much (though thankfully, also not going into debt). I ended up switching programs.

    Anyway, I had one corporate job as a temp for 6 months and that was enough for me. I swore Dilbert worked in the next cube. I’ve completely avoided corporate jobs since–only academic or self-employment. This has definitely slowed down my FI plans, which was always the goal, even before MMM. I’ve lately been wondering if my first corporate experience was the anomaly and I should have gone for higher pay. I’m 44 and still probably 8-10 years away from FI. But I’ve (mostly) enjoyed my work all along and have managed to work part time for all but about 2 years. Your series is confirming my original instincts were spot on. I’m still ready to be done though.

    • livingafi says:

      It’s terrific that you figured it out so quickly — 26 is pretty young to be getting the FI pieces together in your head. Re: academia versus corporate, I have to say, I’m in academia now and it’s a completely different world than the private sector. And by “different” I mean “better” – in virtually every respect save salary. Occasionally I wonder if I might have been happier being in lower stress positions throughout my career and reaching FI much later in life, but most of the time I just accept where I am.
      Everyone’s personality and path are a bit different, and it’s not a race — it’s just about being aware of your goals and finding a way through the jungle to reach it within a timeframe that you’re OK with. To make you feel better, I will say that I know very few people in my field who work for private employers who are not stressed and burnt most of the time. They get paid a boat-load of money, sure (low-to-mid six figures) but it’s not a smooth ride. There’s no shame in enjoying your job and getting to FIRE a bit later…

  6. Fuzzy Buttons says:

    Thanks for posting this series, I’ve really enjoyed reading about your experiences. As a software developer in the midwest, I’ve generally worked in lower stress environments – with matching lower compensation, of course. But the day-to-day work of meeting client and management demands remains the same. Kudos to you for focusing on your long term goals and living the life that you want. Sounds like you would have been a great co-worker to have.

    • livingafi says:

      I headed to a lower stress environment myself on the next place myself — and I’m glad that you’re doing OK with your own employer.. I know what you mean — even at my current job (which I generally think is OK) the underlying problems remain. They just rear their ugly heads less frequently because the volume (quantity) on everything is has been turned down.

  7. FU money is a wonderful thing. I had a maniac boss from 2011-2013. The only thing good that came from working under him was a heightened resolve to get the F*ck out of the rat race ASAP. Most of the time it is better to have a low paying job when working for these type of individuals. If you make a lot of money, these psychopaths think they own you and many times they do! I found out that having FU money along his knowledge that I had it made him much more bearable. The other high paid managers were brutalized daily.

    Thanks for the whole series FI, it has been very enjoyable!


    • livingafi says:

      Hey MDP — I agree 100% with your statements. There’s very little worse than feeling like every single day at work is going to be hell. These types of jobs definitely strengthen one’s resolve to say on track, get FI, and get out. I remind myself that even when you have a good thing going on — a decent job, a good manager — you’re only one reorg away from everything changing. Thanks for reading!

  8. Lou says:

    Another great update in the saga!

    You made an excellent comment some episodes ago, about how people leave bosses rather than jobs. I wholeheartedly agree – the one time I quit a job with no new one to go to was because of a wholly unreasonable boss, who headed up the marketing dept in which I worked. She’d been promoted recently, and was totally not able to cope with the responsibilities required.

    Because she couldn’t delegate – loss of control, loss of control! – she would hoard all the work on her desk, try to struggle through it, then eventually fire it out in desperation at a minion. My personal straw-breaking point was being asked to bend the laws of physics, and produce a printed brochure within a timescale of mere hours, at a rate faster than printing presses could actually operate. When I had to go and apologize to the (internal) client who’d originally requested the work from the marketing dept, he said he’d asked for this to be done about 8 weeks ago, and it had sat… and sat… and sat… until it was due in less than 24 hours…

    I typed up my resignation letter that night, with my husband urging me on. We were living below our means, and with some frugal cutbacks, could get by.

    It felt SO good to hand that over, and watch my boss’s jaw drop!

    I worked a month’s notice, and during that time I had the following conversation dozens of times:

    Work colleague: Hey, I heard you’re leaving already – wow, you’ve only been here a few months. Did you have a previous job application going through somewhere else that’s only just come good?
    Me: Nope, I’m just leaving.
    WC: With nothing to go to, no other job?!
    Me: Yep.
    WC: You’re sooooo lucky! I wish I could just leave, but with the mortgage and everything… I hate this place, hate it so much

    I went contracting after that – got a temp job, and within 2 weeks that company offered me a permanent position which I happily took, having just conducted a 2-week ‘interview’ on their suitability as a decent place to work. I stayed there for 4 years, then stopped working altogether when the kids came along. Now we’re just plugging away at the savings, so hubby can join me – 2022 at the latest, sooner if the markets are kind!

    • livingafi says:

      That’s an incredible story, thanks for sharing. I thought of the peter principle with regard to your marketing department boss. I don’t blame you for leaving after the set-up-to-fail brochure debacle — I think that would make absolutely anyone with the financial means to do so quit. Very glad you were able to fix your situation fairly smoothly. There’s just no point to suffering needlessly with an employer you can’t stand.

      • Lou says:

        Yeah, the impossible-to-print brochure was actually quite helpful. Until then, I’d been somewhat internalising my ‘failure’, doubting, and wondering if maybe I wasn’t working hard enough/ managing my time well enough/ wasn’t good enough… But when the brochure thing happened, it was so comically not my fault that I was able to see the black humor in it and get some perspective, and move on to an excellent employer/ manager who valued me.

    • Amy K says:

      Wonderful story, thank you!

  9. G-dog says:

    Just read the job series. OMG! It’s like we are living the sane god damn tormented life! I am in a different industry – but this is so accurate and so true, including your thoughts, realizations, and reactions – it’s scary. It is so hard to take the BS anymore.
    But I have a timeline, a goal, and a plan – for me (not them). And I will tell them as little as possible as late as possible.

    • livingafi says:

      Hi G, thanks for stopping by. I remember your date is soon, early next year if I’m not mistaken, yeah? Nice work! It’s so nice to be on the final lap. The discomfort of work feels muffled now that the end is in sight…

      • G-dog says:

        That is the plan, though I promised my SO I would look for other opportunities at work. SO is not on board yet, I am new to this FIRE realization (~March 2014). I have been saving and doing some investing since I started work, I had some if the habits but was just in the cultural lockstep of work until 65. Now, I am a rebel that wants to scream “fuck that shit!” But still need to ease the SO into the information, etc.

      • livingafi says:

        Totally get it. It took me 2 years to get my own DW totally on board, and actually, this is a pretty recent development — there was a long period of time when the FIRE thing seemed ridiculous to her. Thankfully, that’s in the past now. The good news is that some people can be convinced, over time.

  10. Bank says:

    What a great read. Sorry you had to live it. As someone who generally likes what he does for a living, and who he does it with and for, I sometimes have trouble understanding others’ burning need for FI. A brush with Satan would certainly accelerate my own FI plans considerably.

    • livingafi says:

      Yep, I generally like what I do — I mean, the underlying function of it is interesting. It’s just problem solving, plain and simple. You have a toolkit and something that needs to be either created or fixed, and you go to work. But the surrounding stuff (people, politics, rigid scheduling, red-tape and other process-oriented ridiculousness, pressure to overwork, fear, mismanagement of human resources, and on and on) is what most of us are really striving to get away from, I suspect. I’m glad you like your own employer, for the most part.

  11. George says:

    I enjoyed reading this, thanks a lot for posting! I’m a developer at a Mega corp, 32 years of age but I have about 10 more years until FI. Thinking of taking a break from working for 6-12 months though … just to travel and learn new (coding) skills. Do you know anyone that did this, what’s your take ? I know it will delay FI but I feel like if I don’t do something like this now I won’t be able to do it when I have kids …

    • livingafi says:

      Hi George. There’s nothing wrong with taking a break. A while back I had a co-worker who wasn’t interested in FIRE specifically, but nonetheless had some similar ideas. He was a contract IT worker and he liked to take a 6-month gig, work really hard, save as much as possible, and then take the next 6 months off. During this time he’d blow through the money he’d earned while enjoying a quality slow-vacation. Since he was always working 6 months out of the year, his skills never got stale and he didn’t worry too much about finding his next contract. He loved this lifestyle. My own approach has been different: No employment gaps, get it all in as early as possible (i.e. I’m frontloading the formal office-type work I’m planning on doing in life) and then be done with it forever. Thing is, neither of our approaches is right or wrong. It’s about picking an option that works for you. As long as you go into your break with full awareness of what you’re doing in terms of extending your time-to-FI and any associated risks (e.g. making sure you have health care, you’re comfortable with the idea of searching for a new job after the period is over, etc), and you’re still really gung-ho about it, then it’ll be a good choice for your own personality and situation.

      Also, if it’s a short break, consider asking your employer if they’ll hold your position. Some will.

      Another thought: See if you can frontload your 401(k) for the year, then take your break. That’ll mitigate how much your date will get punted.

  12. Steph says:

    I’m looking forward to reading the happy phase of this story, let’s face it you deserve some respite after going through this nightmare 🙂

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  15. kogisolos says:

    why did you find it important to comment on the attractiveness of your CSO in this post? you did not do a similar assessment of physical appearance for any of the other cast of characters in this (very amusing) real life story. I hope that my business associates don’t pull up my looks as the first thing to talk about when discussing me with others, I would find that embarrassing and disappointing.

    • livafi says:

      The appearance related details stuck out in my head because a) because it was the first day I met her b) her first week with the company and c) she clearly put a lot of time and energy into her appearance in order to look slick and professional (to make a good initial impression) and she was rewarded for these efforts by immediately being crushed by the CEO’s ridiculous expectations; I wanted to show how hopeful she initially appeared prior to the meeting. Maybe I could have found a better way to do it.
      >> I hope that my business associates don’t pull up my looks as the first thing to talk about when discussing me with others, I would find that embarrassing and disappointing.
      Same here. Please keep in mind the context here. I’m writing for blog readers, not co-workers.

      • kogisolos says:

        Yes, that makes sense. I guess your intent didn’t come through for me personally – I got that she was “a little chubby, but she tried”, and that you used that as an introductory comment, similar to “he was the type of guy missing a personality chip”. I suppose, as a female in a leadership position, I am more sensitive to this kind of thing because I have never seen it happen to my male coworkers, but I am 100% sure it has happened to me (thanks to it being related from friends – so how many more times outside of their earshot?). So I guess it took me by surprise to see (what I perceived as) the same kind of thing elsewhere.

        Regardless of these subtle gender issues, I have greatly enjoyed your blog since finding it, even though it has made me incredibly jealous. I’ve been talking to my boss about having him help me take more scheduled vacation time because I’m really prone to burnout. I’ve been luckier than you in place-of-employment so he’s helping me out, and I have a week in July and a week in September planned out! Still many years to go for me even at 60%+ ;___;

        Rock on, I can’t WAIT to hear about what you do with your time now that you have it back!

      • livingafi says:

        >> I am more sensitive to this kind of thing because I have never seen it happen to my male coworkers,
        Sorry it’s happened to you — point of fact, a female ex CW at my final job occasionally commented on my physique (and by commented I really mean “complimented” me, yuck) which made me feel, obviously, uncomfortable. (I have a top-heavy build, large chest and arms relative to the rest of my body.) Her behavior didn’t make me feel unsafe or professionally threatened, thankfully, but rather a mix of awkward, embarrassed, and irritated. This kind of behavior has no place in the office IMO. (She’s actually the Cruella character in my Daylight post, aggressive, strong personality. I just let it go the couple of times it’s happened, but internally — blah. Not OK.) On the plus side, she made her comments directly to my face – I guess that’s a good thing.

        Lots of well documented sexism in software/IT. Male-dominated industry. Not a good thing. It does seem to be getting more exposure and press recently, though, which is a positive development.

        My wife also deals with issues of this sort as she is in the same field. She’s a manager nowadays and occasionally overhears someone calling her behavior “bitchy” when in actuality she’s simply displaying qualities of leadership and authority necessary for her to do her job. Same behavior from a man, and he doesn’t get called out. He’s “confident” and “decisive.” He “knows how to control his team and get things done.” My wife? Nope, just a bitch. It’s upsetting as hell, but the question is what do you do about it?

        >> about having him help me take more scheduled vacation time because I’m really prone to burnout.
        That’s awesome, your boss sounds helpful and human – very important. Enjoy your time away recharging.

  16. A Little More Mercenary says:

    “What if I’m able to get that bonus to go through?”

    You’ve admitted to sabotaging a coworker and lying to promote the company, which I wouldn’t fault you for at all. But you’re still a better man than I. I would’ve said, “Well, yeah, that’s what this is about” until the bonus check cleared and then walked.

    (Thanks for writing your blog, it’s been great to get to read your calculations and tradeoffs along the hard road to FI.)

    • livafi says:

      If I were a little smarter I would have done as you suggested. In the heat of the moment I was so pissed with Satan that I wanted to throw the fact that he was an awful person directly in his face. (As if he gave a flying F about morality.) Also, retrospectively, I decided he probably would not have coughed up the full bonus anyway, given his personality. I believe it was just a carrot he wanted to dangle in front of me again, to see what I would do.

  17. Derrick says:

    I loved all your posts so far. I worked as a QA at a SoftwareCompany for my first job out of college. It was almost exactly as you describe your experiences above.The CEO was crazy to say the least Our support people were always stressed out and the “debuggers” were pushed on by hard by management. As QA there were a lot of late nights testing right before the release, which we did bi-weekly for the whole two years I was there.I moved to a different industry to an Analyst role and I am happier for it. My FIRE path is just started and I have a long road ahead of me. Thanks for sharing your experiences

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